Curse

M'Aiq The Liar · Jul 11, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I'm a PvX player at heart... I do PvE, but occasionally I get the PvP itch from time to time. A while ago, that included trying out HA. I've basically given up on that anymore, because at the moment, the kind of players that you'll find in HA are the ones that have been doing it for at least a year. With a game that's been out as long as Guild Wars has been, the experience gap is almost insurmountable by someone newer to the game. How can you expect to catch up on two, three, maybe four years' experience?

Also, I've noticed a heavy paradox among the PvP community's attitudes regarding newer players. I'm sure I'm not the only one that notices the hypocrisy in the attitudes you see here.

"PvP has a high learning curve, so players who want to learn are always welcome. Except in my group. I want my fame/rating!"

For all of the people bemoaning the loss of guilds like [kisu] and [XoO] and what they contributed to PvP... why not do something about it? There's a gap there waiting to be filled. Who knows? Maybe you'll be the people to revive interest in PvP and bring in some badly needed new blood.

Still Number One · Jul 11, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falynn Firestorm

I believe I am not the only one put off by the abuse at the lower levels of PvP. It probably gets better in the upper levels, but maybe not.

It actually does get better. Surprisingly enough, the guys who are full of themselves are the one's who are bad and always stay bad. The players who do the majority of trash talking are the players with the huge egos that prevent them from improving because they don't see their own mistakes and fix them. So those players populate the lower end of the ladder and the PvP environments. It is unfortunate that most new PvPers start off facing pretty much only these guys and no one else.

Higher end players are not stuck up because we know there is no advantage to it. Not to mention we all were in your shoes at one point and know how difficult it is to transition past that first tier. The only time a high end player will smack talk is if they are facing other high end players, (it is usually just joking around because everyone knows everyone at that level) Their opponent is playing a gimmick build that they have no respect toward, or their opponent was being disrespectful during the match. I for one will trash talk in AB if someone tries to trash talk me first but I never go out looking to cause trouble. I usually just tick players off because I run around and solo gank everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M'Aiq The Liar

For all of the people bemoaning the loss of guilds like [kisu] and [XoO] and what they contributed to PvP... why not do something about it? There's a gap there waiting to be filled. Who knows? Maybe you'll be the people to revive interest in PvP and bring in some badly needed new blood.

I've thought about it a lot but figured I wasn't experienced or well known enough to be able to pull something like that off. It is a lot of work to be able to find a lot of dedicated mentors to keep the thing going, and you pretty much have to be willing to give up competing highly in the monthly so you can devote most of your time to training up newer players. So it is a great idea but I know it is something I wouldn't be able to lead. I would be more than happy to help out though if someone else was interested in starting it.

Fril Estelin · Jul 11, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by M'Aiq The Liar

For all of the people bemoaning the loss of guilds like [kisu] and [XoO] and what they contributed to PvP... why not do something about it? There's a gap there waiting to be filled. Who knows? Maybe you'll be the people to revive interest in PvP and bring in some badly needed new blood.

There's 48 pages of interesting discussions to read on this topic here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10353492

Tl;dr: not going to happen, unfortunately...

M'Aiq The Liar · Jul 11, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

There's 48 pages of interesting discussions to read on this topic here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10353492

Tl;dr: not going to happen, unfortunately...

That really sucks. =/ I think that a key part of the answer when it comes to bridging the gap is community involvement in making the transition. The community's changed a lot since the days of [XoO] and [KiSu] though, and not really for the better.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 11, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

It's more like making a bridge to shorten the gap. In the end it still needs to be crossed and requires you jump. Nothing anyone can do about it, rather here in GW it's a mental thing, that requires dedication and effort rather than phsyical ability to jump that gap. PvP isn't for everyone so there will be a divide in playerbases.

Bysheon · Jul 11, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Interesting discussion, good points.

As long as you are playing PvE, you are kind of always busy with that, so if you want to play some PvP once in a while it needs to be easily accessible and in a casual and forgiving environment. A world PvP would be a good idea, as mentioned, but not necessarily primarily meant as an introduction to PvP, but as an end in itself. Tied to PvE in some way maybe, but also just enjoyable for what it is.

It is also possible to want to PvP semi serious, relatively regularly without being what hard core PvP players would call serious and dedicated, and not ever wanting to get to the next level. There are a lot of levels on that scale and I think there is a gap there - there is no feature that correspond to, enables and encourages that kind of (and level of) ambition. The closest thing to that would be AB I guess. There should be more PvP and PvE-PvP hybrid formats; bigger variety. Some HA players are more dedicated than many GvG players, but have no plans to make the transition to GvG. They enjoy HA, it is just their thing. I think more types of PvP and PvP-PvE hybrids, more variety, would encourage players to move around more freely between the formats and find their (currently suitable) kind and level of PvP. It would also make the 1000 billion skills in the game (if kept) a little less ridiculous and even kind of interesting and reasonable.

As for the more serious GvG, some players are dedicated and serious enough to play competitively, others aren’t, period. I would prefer some kind of divisions though, better than the current match system, especially considering that the game has existed for a few years now. Of course there is a lot of other ways to make the GvG itself better, but that is a topic of its own.

The community problem isn’t probably that much to do about, until potentially intelligent adults and/or women take their heads out of their asses and start playing these kind of games or, for those who do play, move from PvE to PvP. PvP players are usually very young people, even children in some cases, and the vast majority is guys. That creates ofc a very pubescent and restless atmosphere. Combine that with an intense competitive environment that also takes thought, patience, communication and cooperation… ofc some guilds implode and the forums are what they are. The relative anonymity and lack of social consequences in an online game and its community doesn’t exactly help either. PvP newcombers gets turned off by this of course. That’s a subsubsubcultural thing though. Doesn’t have anything, or very little, to do with any game related formal or technical circumstances. But, as Cluebag mentioned, the possibilities to social interactions, creating networks etc are technically very limited, which contributes to the great divide. I agree - it should be much more dynamic.

Nerel · Jul 11, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

PvP offers rare skins via Reward Points, some exclusive to PvP, I don't think the love of shiny objects is the primary reason people avoid PvP in favor of PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

It's more like making a bridge to shorten the gap. In the end it still needs to be crossed and requires you jump. Nothing anyone can do about it, rather here in GW it's a mental thing, that requires dedication and effort rather than physical ability to jump that gap. PvP isn't for everyone so there will be a divide in player bases.

I still hope GW2 does a better job of integrating PvP into the game's mainstream appeal, so that most players won't think twice about the shift into PvP. A divided player base hasn't been good for GW in my opinion, the dev focus on PvE has lead to grindy titles to keep us PvE'ers playing, neglect for the organized PvP tournaments of old and of course, the split skills system that certainly should make the dev's job easier, but also serves as a wedge between the PvE and PvP communities.

Apollo Smile · Jul 11, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

What are the chances for PvP only guilds to ruin World PvP for everyone else? And the whole benefits shit sounds exactly like the idiotic favour and faction system, you know, where you can not buy stuff because the wrong group owns the town! Both a major annoyance.

Its World vs World, not Guild vs Guild. A huge guild owning everyone would benefit EVERYONE in that world. It would encourage banding together and kicking ass, not hinder it.

Arkantos · Jul 11, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

PvE never prepared players for the game. PvE prepared players for the PvE game.
Which means that the players that completed PvE, couldn't really move on to PvP. They had to start over in PvP.

GW is basically two games for the price of one.

Really, now? Then tell me why the 3 missions in the crystal desert were based on tombs objectives (relic running, annihilation, king of the hill). Pretty sure ANet was trying to get them familiarized with tombs in a non competitive environment. Coincidentally, tombs was in the crystal desert.

Juhanah · Jul 11, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

I think player need to be taken in PvP a bit more by the game. There should have quest that bring you to some small pvp fights. Or announcement ingame about PvP.

Someone who start with Prophecy get to have that small 4v4 fight to end the pre-searing story. And after that, nothing.. You never hear of pvp again other than "X has won a battle in the hall of heroes..."

The smaller town arena were not so bad during preview events and in the first few weeks after launch to make new player get a bit more into PvP. But the ability to access lv 20 armor and elite skills when you are not even lv 5 destroyed the whole thing.

If there was some kind of arena like the coliseum in Rome. where, once a week, people could register as gladiator to fights and other could place bets on fighters. A lot of people would get into the coliseum to either test their strength or see the battles. New player would certainly hear of it soon enough.. Especially if its announced in game when the registration starts. I'm sure the Norns would agree to a coliseum. There could be some title to people who win fights in the coliseum since people only do it for something other than just for fun now a day.

If guild leader could send a challenge to guilds of similar rank and it would up to those guilds to accept or refuse it. They could be small challenge like in the Zaichen challenge arena. Guild leader would receive a message saying.
"X guild of rank 00 is sending a challenge of 2v2/4v4/8v8 in Random/Specified map. Do you accept?"

Right now the pvp is very hidden in GW. I'm sure some people play GW and don't know there is more PvP than HoH and GvG.

What make PvPing in guildwars even harder is that if you have no experience, you are left out alone for a very very long time. You cannot get into PvP party because you have no experience and will most likely make them lose and you cannot get experience because you cannot get into a party other than people with similar or less experience. So instead of 8v8 you usually feel like 1v8 for a long time.

EagleDelta1 · Jul 11, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Honestly, most people(at least those I know & play with) don't do PvP simply because they don't want to. Same for me. Every game with an online mode in existence - be it MMO, FPS, or RTS - has PvP. I would rather play a game cooperatively than competitively, especially an RPG. If I want to play a PvP game I'll go play COD4, Killzone 2, etc. I play RPGs for character growth(however that is accomplished) and cooperative play. The only MMO I've played PvP in and enjoyed it is EVE, and I wouldn't even put it in the MMORPG subgenre. Part of that is b/c in EVE I usually have a vested interest in the PvP as I'm usually fighting to protect stuff that belongs to my corp/alliance, as opposed to just gaining some win/loss numbers next to my name/guild. Maybe if GW allowed guilds and alliances to build their own strongholds, take their own territory ppl might like it better. But this is all just my opinion.

Bottom line, there are a lot of players who just don't do PvP in GW b/c they simply don't want to play competitively , they would rather play PvE cooperatively.

Bysheon · Jul 11, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juhanah

I think player need to be taken in PvP a bit more by the game. There should have quest that bring you to some small pvp fights. Or announcement ingame about PvP.

Someone who start with Prophecy get to have that small 4v4 fight to end the pre-searing story. And after that, nothing.. You never hear of pvp again other than "X has won a battle in the hall of heroes..."

The smaller town arena were not so bad during preview events and in the first few weeks after launch to make new player get a bit more into PvP. But the ability to access lv 20 armor and elite skills when you are not even lv 5 destroyed the whole thing.

If there was some kind of arena like the coliseum in Rome. where, once a week, people could register as gladiator to fights and other could place bets on fighters. A lot of people would get into the coliseum to either test their strength or see the battles. New player would certainly hear of it soon enough.. Especially if its announced in game when the registration starts. I'm sure the Norns would agree to a coliseum. There could be some title to people who win fights in the coliseum since people only do it for something other than just for fun now a day.

If guild leader could send a challenge to guilds of similar rank and it would up to those guilds to accept or refuse it. They could be small challenge like in the Zaichen challenge arena. Guild leader would receive a message saying.
"X guild of rank 00 is sending a challenge of 2v2/4v4/8v8 in Random/Specified map. Do you accept?"

Exactly, stuff like that. Also, the armor issue in the small PvE arenas could be taken care of (most easily by just asigning a character a base armor level that corresponds to level and class). And no elite in the level 10 (?) arena.

Chthon · Jul 11, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Since when were you the spokesperson for the entire PvE community?

I'm not being anyone's spokesperson here; I'm speaking descriptively of the facts as I observe them. Most PvEers just don't have any interest in PvP.

As for the few that do but never transition, there's two reasons, both of which have been covered already:

First,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Well the biggest failure was that A.Net never did a good job providing enjoyable PvP for the masses.
...
sorts of PvP that most players want is very accessible, requires minimal organization, allows some amount of contribution regardless of skill level, and provides rewards. Guild Wars did not do a particularly good job at this - instead most of the PvP development effort went into GvG and HA, which are very inaccessible, requires a lot of organization, leaves weaker players as liabilities, and is unrewarding for all but the most successful players. That sort of design splits your community hard, and that's exactly what happened

Second,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falynn Firestorm

I was a hardcore PvE player who decided to play PvP. I would like to play PvP more but the attitudes and grief from other players really ruin it for me and make that part of the game a chore

YunSooJin · Jul 11, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleDelta1

Bottom line, there are a lot of players who just don't do PvP in GW b/c they simply don't want to play competitively , they would rather play PvE cooperatively.

translation: i want to feel good about myself, not learn to be a better player if it takes any effort at all

sadly, this is why there will always be a pvp and pve divide

Apollo Smile · Jul 11, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

translation: i want to feel good about myself, not learn to be a better player if it takes any effort at all

sadly, this is why there will always be a pvp and pve divide

Better translation: I like to have fun when playing video games.

Lo The Fallen · Jul 11, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

let's beat this dead horse more!

in my opinon, pvers are turned off to pvp by many problems that may be technical or within the game community.

- first off, rank discrimination....sigh
-lag issues, high ping, etc.
-pvp players getting a bad rap as " all of them being mean"
-and so many other self explanatory problems

To bridge the gap, your going to have to get people who really care about the game and take it seriously, it's been out for so long that most players are lax about it.If experienced players are unwilling to teach newer players...therein lies the problem within the community. For the most part, too
many people that just don't care anymore..it's sad to see a great game go sour.Everything in GW has been beaten to death.

I still believe that it's a pvp game...and pve does a great job preparing players for it, but in all honesty there isn't enough new pve content to spark interest. so people that are harping on that need to move on and get into pvp
revive this game with some enthusiasm. Stop the cliques and the bs and just play the game..

Sickened to tears

-Lo

Bryant Again · Jul 11, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Really, now? Then tell me why the 3 missions in the crystal desert were based on tombs objectives (relic running, annihilation, king of the hill). Pretty sure ANet was trying to get them familiarized with tombs in a non competitive environment. Coincidentally, tombs was in the crystal desert.

I don't think there's ever been a game that's provided a good transition into it's PvP from it's PvE, now that I think about it...

Still Number One · Jul 11, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lo The Fallen

let's beat this dead horse more!

in my opinon, pvers are turned off to pvp by many problems that may be technical or within the game community.

- first off, rank discrimination....sigh

A lot of PvErs believe PvP players are stuck up and refuse to take anyone who doesn't have as many flashy titles as them

I can take that concept and say from the PvP side, a lot of PvEr's are lazy or full of themselves and don't want to take the time to learn with players of their own level and improve on their abilities through hard work and determination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lo The Fallen

-lag issues, high ping, etc.

Yea there is no beating around the bush for this one. If you want to play a profession that requires good reflexes, you need a good connection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lo The Fallen

-pvp players getting a bad rap as " all of them being mean"

Some of us are dicks, plain and simple. But a lot of PvErs I've meant can't take any type of criticism no matter how nicely it is put out. You can calmly and clearly tell them their mistakes and how to fix them and they think you are attacking them and call you an asshole. Sorry for trying to help. Stop being so soft skinned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lo The Fallen

-and so many other self explanatory problems

Getting over the I have to be creative and run less effective builds because I find them more fun is one of those. You don't get to run a funny creative build if you play competitive PvP (unless it is goof around BYOB). You have to run what is most effective and what meshes well with the team. A lot of PvErs despise this.

Also the fact of how competitive PvP is and the lack of a casual environment. This was already hit on in this thread so no use going into more detail about it. Just read Ensign's post.

there are more but I don't feel like discussing them atm. It is just really frustrating seeing all these people portray the reasoning behind not being able to get into PvP being the attitude of the PvPers. More often than not, it is the PvEr not being willing to learn from mistakes and commit enough dedication to being good. That isn't our fault. It is yours.

Trub · Jul 11, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I thought DoA was first cleared by a few of the best PvErs and some of the best PvPers?

That part was easy.
It was the Mallyx part that gave them the fits.
PvP=[SoF] Vitrix, and PvE=[SMS].
And even that part couldn't have been done without Roab and Racktoe discovering that using the old PvP weapon swap trick undid the famous 'Mallyx glitch".
No hax, no moving the dam priest (cheaters!)...just weapon swapping when Mallyx attacked.
(That dam PvP mind of his..><):
<3 ya Rob!
OT:...PvP..PvE..it's all gud.

Bryant Again · Jul 12, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Yeah why *are* you attacking Wars first Avatar?

I could understand if you maybe wanted to snare them...but I feel that it'd be better to do that to the sin, or the ele, or most importantly the monk.

@Trub: oookay cool, that explains that, thanks!